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Anyway, this bust you see here is called Smiling Bust. It was an object already of course but I manipulated it a little bit with this spray paint, which glows at night actually. But you can also see it during the day. In my show inside, you can also see a photograph of this bust. I hope it works both ways; outside and inside.

Willoughby Sharp, Pamela Seymour Smith, Serkan Ozkaya

W.S. Do you have a word to describe this mode of work? Is it a re-made readymade? Is it readymade? Is it...?
S.O. I don´t know. You can call it an intervention, or an action maybe. But it´s more humble and more passive than an action. You can call it a joke. You can call it manipulated readymade. But what isn´t? You know, everything is a manipulated readymade.
W.S. Is Duchamp someone whose work you have a feeling about?
S.O. Yeah, of course. Who doesn´t? But I can´t say I´m an expert of his work. It´s always been a little bit too much in terms of all these plays and self-references etc.
W.S. On his part, you don´t like that?
S.O. I do like that. But it´s hard for me to understand sometimes. I read a couple of books about one of his paintings for instance.
W.S. Which one?
S.O. Tu m´. And there´s an explanation for every single dot in it. There it loses me, not Duchamp but the writer actually loses me. It´s like reading this annotated version of Ulysses, there is a footnote for every single word; and maybe it´s an over-interpretation, you never know.
W.S. Was your Goldenboy statue in any way referent to anything that Marcel Duchamp ever did?

Serkan Ozkaya´s exhibition at Künstlerhaus Bethanien

S.O. You mean The Nude Descending a Staircase. Apparently there is some inspiration. It wasn´t consciously. Of course I knew that there was such a work but maybe I was more naïve and I was thinking of this movement question. Maybe I discovered it once again. Maybe I was inspired by him and made this sculpture and I didn´t know it. And maybe I stole it from him.
W.S. There is and there are a number of German artists, they have shows, they have press releases, and the buzzword that sticks out is that; this or that artist references to this or that artist. I had never seen that terminology before: reference. What do you think about that in terms of your own work?
S.O. You can find references. I mean it´s not hard. They also wrote in this review in the newspaper you just showed me, that you wear a Beuys-hat. That could be any hat. You can just collide all these things together. It only shows that you know some things. You know this or that.
W.S. The writer who wrote it said he knew. It isn´t actually a Beuys-hat. Beuys never had a hat like this. This perception that you have is very interesting to me. Because you have a way of looking at the world, kind of picking out thing and maybe getting on the other side of the person who wrote that or said that or did that. You have a kind of social transmission. You look at things from more than just your own perspective. You consider what the viewer and what other people think about more deeply than I would or that other artist. What do you say to that?
S.O. I try. But in the end it´s always comes out of my mouth. If you don´t forget that there is one individual who is yourself then there´s no escape from it. But sometimes you can maybe forget about it and think of yourself as a multi-layered - if you wish - personality. And maybe you can be the viewer and some other time you can be the artist or you can be something else. It´s about the distance I think. The distance between yourself and the work and the distance between the viewer and the work, and the artist and the work. If you can distance yourself from that image, from that idea or from the object then you have more than one possibility.
W.S. More than one level.
S.O. More than one level.
W.S. But this is I think something special in your thinking about your work and the world. Have you thought about that?
S.O. Well when you put it this way then it becomes again, one individual, which is me and my special way of thinking. But this is the very way of thinking which I´m trying to distance myself from.
W.S. What kind of thinking are you trying to distance yourself from?
S.O. That there is only one individual, which is called you. Like one Willoughby Sharp and that´s who he is. Everything he says is attached to that persona.
W.S. I don´t believe that at all. I believe I have many many personalities, many appearances, and like - I never particularly get along with Richter when I met him in the fifties in Germany but - that he is credited with a sort of no-style. I think that´s a very desirable quality to have not been caught in a single mode of thinking. And you have that, your work has that. If you went into your show and you don´t know it´s Serkan´s work you might be tempted to say it´s a group show. And you like that and you encourage that don´t you?
S.O. I like that.
W.S. I don´t know that many artists that admit to that. Because everyone wants to be so known for an image or something you know, Campbell soup can for instance. I find this very postmodern, very appealing about you and very influential in my own self, because I have certain opportunities to show here and there. One idea is that, another idea is another that one is in one country and other. As a Turkish artist you must also be torn by the different nationalities, different possibilities. Speak to that.
S.O. You´re right. Like I said I wanted to be a painter when I was young, like 12 years old or 13. The only paintings I knew were the ones in the books. These were all reproductions. These were not actual works and I never knew any of those painters. There was not one single Turkish artist in all these art history books. What I could always look at was the pages of magazines and books. The first time when I saw some real artworks, so to speak, it wasn´t easy for me to get into it. It´s not easy to see what´s happening there. It´s not. So I always had the distance from the idea of the original. Once you have this distance from the original, you have this distance from reality.
W.S. But what is reality?
S.O. Reality is that you feel real, you feel here and now. You feel what you make, what you act, registers.
W.S. Now that´s almost a definition of a good artist.
S.O. That´s not me.
W.S. That´s not you?
S.O. No.
W.S. No?
S.O. I don´t feel...
W.S. You don´t feel here and now?
S.O. No. I always feel premeditated. I always feel that I perform in a way or another, the things that I had rehearsed before.

* * *

S.O. Come in please. Maybe I should start with this one here. Because as I said the piece itself is outside of this building. It´s a bust; it´s a statue of someone, of the guy who initiated this building. And I made this smiley face with neon spray paint on his head. Outside you can see the actual piece or whatever it is, on the inside of the gallery you have the picture thereof.

W.S. What was your intention here?
S.O. Intention? Well, formally it´s about this inside-outside thing. Outside it functions in a different way; inside it functions in a different way. I think this is the sort of excrement or documentation or the picture of what actually the piece is. But then the intention with the smiley face I think is just about trying to make it look ridiculous. Making fun of something sacred.
W.S. Is it a two part piece? You have to get both pieces to get the whole work?
S.O. Yeah. I think the thing outside functions in a different way. For instance at the opening of this show there was this girl who came to me and said: "Oh, I wanted to take this picture." She had no idea that I made it. She thought that it was just this ready made something out there, made by some kind of an eccentric graffiti person. In that way it functions both ways. Outside it functions more anonymous. It doesn´t say that it´s art there. But in here even the relics of it, even the documentation of it is called art.
W.S. What´s the significance of the graphics?
S.O. The smiley face? That´s one of the most generic forms you can see today. I think it started with this semicolon and a parenthesis. It´s one of the most basic forms to express yourself. You´re happy, you´re sad, you´re confused, you´re sleeping with two dots and a line. Today there is a usage of these things in a lot of places like internet chat. There are all these emoticons as they are called. They show your emotions. They are these very stupid, graphic and in fact very surreal icons. I just wanted to apply it to this most serious thing, like our sacred monument of this very honorable person. I put some more emotions on him.
W.S. Is it satirical?
S.O. Yeah, maybe.
W.S. What is your attitude toward the sculpture before you touch it?
S.O. To this one. Well, it´s nothing really personal about this very statue. It´s more about what we or our civilization or culture puts in the place of the sacred thing. As you know what you have a statue of is, is what you honor. Most of the time they´re murderers, these soldiers or all kinds of people. They all look very proud. They are not really smiling. In that sense I´m not sure it´s a sculpture in the way in which we understand sculpture, it´s more like a show of power. I think there´s this power issue there. You see this guy standing there and he is going to be there forever. That´s also the idea that it´s made of bronze. To make it more ephemeral I tried to put this paint on it. My little graffiti is not going to last forever. They are going to clean it up soon. But still it´s going on.
W.S. Is this a subversive act?
S.O. If you think so. I don´t know.
W.S. In a lot of sense you believe that art is in the eye of the beholder.
S.O. Yeah, I think so.
W.S. As Marcel Duchamp advocated.
S.O. It was probably long time before him, like in these Persian poems that beauty is in the eye of the lover. You look at that person and if you think she or he is beautiful then he or she is beautiful.
W.S. Can you think of a particular Persian writer who said that?
S.O. That was Fuzuli in his Leyla and Mecnun, it´s a very long poem.
W.S. So you´re pretty well read in some of that literature.
S.O. No. I had to read it. It was a high school class. But I know that he´s older than Duchamp.
Exactly. So it´s in the interaction. I think that the reaction of the girl who came to me and said "Oh, I wanted to take this picture" as if I´ve stolen her idea from her by taking and putting this picture up, was enough of a part of this tension between inside and outside. She thought it was an art piece outside but she thought it was anonymous at the same time and then she thought I was the artist and I took the picture thus I took her idea as well, although it was all my creation; and she became this point of tension in that work. I like that.
W.S. Serkan, I want to ask you about the genesis of the piece. When did you decide to do it?
S.O. I think that´s a very good question because more and more I find myself in a sort of premeditated state. I always plan these things ahead and I just go and apply them. I had the idea months ago and I was just looking for an appropriate statue. This seemed to me the most harmless one and then it would function better in front of the gallery space.
W.S. Do you make a drawing for that, or is it just an idea? Do you make a note for it? How do you think of it?
S.O. I have drawings about this. But in the end you don´t really need those. I have all these sketches, because I sort of wanted to visualize it but in the end they are... I mean if I had the spray can and the statue here I´d just go and do it, without making any sketches. It´s maybe about this frustration. The more frustrated you are the more drawings and sketches and models you keep making.
W.S. What is the title of this piece?
S.O. It´s the Smiling Bust.
W.S. Would you ever do a work impromptu, without pre-thinking it? Let´s say you didn´t think of making it and you saw the bust and you did it. Do you ever work that way? Very spontaneously? Or is it always conceptual, pre-thought thinking, maybe making a drawing, whatever?
S.O. I´m afraid I don´t really work very spontaneously. Or else maybe it´s my consciousness; after I make something, be it spontaneous at that moment, I always think that I had meditated about it long time ago. It operates both ways. Once you have something you can always refer backwards too. I sort of justify it. Maybe it was spontaneous. I wouldn´t know. But I always believe that it isn´t.

W.S. Can we move to this piece here? What can you tell us about that? First of all what´s its title?
S.O. The title is Goldenboy.
Well, uh. What do you think?
W.S. I think that´s one of the pieces that sold me on you and I tell you particularly what I like about your show. I like that there isn´t a given esthetic or a system of forms that you call from to make the work. I like the variety in video, hanging sculpture, photography, drawings, documents, wall sculptures, that piece in the other room... I like the range of your interests and your mind. There is a bit of mystery in the work. One wonders for example, what the hell is that all about. So tell us.
S.O. It´s like this kitten you have now in your studio. It´s recording the movement on the form. As if this guy is hung and moving his hands and feet and his head. You can actually see all that movement recorded in time but here also in the form. That was the basic idea about it. Then the subject matter is about err... I´m not sure.
W.S. What was the original vision or conception or picture in your mind that you had that started this work off?
S.O. I think it´s, you know, I had this idea about movement and to have more then one movement in the same space, long time before. Well not too long time in fact but I´d been working on it for some time now, like these eggs falling, like that. You know that´s also a sculpture. It´s recording sort of a disaster in its climax, before it turns out to be a disaster. Before he dies, or before the eggs are smashed. I think there is some beauty in it. On the newspapers we see all these pictures of bombs exploding or plane crashes and stuff. And there is some beauty in that moment if only there weren´t the afterwards, like people killed etc.
W.S. Because you know that in your mind.
S.O. Yes. All in all the form itself is something so spectacular actually. It´s almost like nature. It´s almost like an earthquake. There is something very holy about it and very spectacular and very transcendental. But in here it´s more materialized.
W.S. The installation with the rope then, how significant is that? Tell us about its genesis.
S.O. I just wanted to hang it as high as possible; it would function maybe better in a very high church ceiling or something.
W.S. It would work without the rope.
S.O. No. Do you think so?
W.S. It needs the rope.
S.O. I think it needs the rope.
W.S. And it needs to be hung.
S.O. Yes.
W.S. And the sort of function of the movement that it´s hung and that effects the gesticulation and the destruction of the head and everything, is that right?
S.O. Yes. So the boy is hung, he hung himself.
W.S. He hung himself?
S.O. I think so.
W.S. You think so?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. You think so. You´re not sure?
S.O. I hung him.
W.S. You helped him hang himself. He has a volition, a life of his own.
S.O. Yeah.
W.S. From when did that start?
S.O. The life of?
W.S. Of his own.
S.O. His life is all about hanging himself and doing like this, moving his arms and feet and head. And that´s it.
W.S. That´s it.
S.O. That´s where it started and where it ends.
W.S. Where did he come into the world? In your mind? Or did he exist before you thought of him?
S.O. I think I just wanted to make this sculpture, which was stuck in that moment before the disaster, including the idea of disaster.
W.S. But now you changed track. You said sculpture. I´m not talking about this; I´m talking about the boy. Now you´re moving away from that. I want to go back to my question: When was the boy born?
S.O. ...
W.S. Good question, huh?
S.O. Yeah. Well. The boy... Yeah. I don´t know.
W.S. Did you make drawings for the boy?
S.O. Yes. I made one drawing.
W.S. And then how did you actually make the physical object?
S.O. I took three mannequins, and cut them and...
W.S. Like that in stores?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. And they put clothes on them.
S.O. Yeah.
W.S. For showing.
S.O. Exactly. So I cut the arms...
W.S. You went to a store and then what?
S.O. Yeah, I worked with this guy who makes mannequins. I made them produced, three or four mannequins. I just did the cutting and gluing this time.
W.S. Did the mannequins inspire you or did you have the idea before and say that´s the mannequins?
S.O. I had the idea before but then the mannequins are very cheap and easily produces and sort of wishy-washy.
W.S. Valuable. You can do a lot with them.
S.O. Yes.
W.S. Do you want to do other pieces with mannequins?
S.O. I have a couple of pieces with them.
W.S. Is this the first?
S.O. No, this is not the first. The first one is the statue of the Turk that carries eleven watermelons.
W.S. Why gold?
S.O. Because it´s cheap and precious.
W.S. Gold is cheap?
S.O. No, this plastic is cheap.
W.S. Yeah, but now I ask why do you paint it gold as opposed to red or blue?
S.O. To create this illusion that it´s something precious.
W.S. Precious?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. You want your work to be precious?
S.O. No! I want it to look as if.
W.S. Uhuh. What´s the market value of this precious object? All or part, give or take.
S.O. You know, it´s not much. It would be probably between five grands and ten grands at most. It can be just trash too.
W.S. Yes. You like that don´t you?
S.O. Yeah.
W.S. I do about my own work too. I think well, here´s the material it only cost 39 euros, I can do that, put a few more euros and make something, get some rabbits and hey, rabbits go away. If I have to throw Beuys-lives in the trash so it´s all right.
S.O. Yes.
W.S. That´s nice.
Now, when does it become art? Joseph Beuys says the work of art is in the transaction. If I had the money and wanted to buy that piece, and said, oh Serkan, I have to have this. I give you the five thousand euros, would you accept the low offer? And you thought and said: All right. Does that change for you this work? Or how then do you think of it?
S.O. I totally agree that art occurs in this transaction but transaction is not only between the collector and the work but it´s also between the viewers, between the art lovers and the work. And there´s a certain interaction. And that interaction is where the work occurs. Maybe we can go over there.
W.S. That´s where the work occurs?
S.O. I think so, Yeah.
W.S. All right. Do you want to pursue that; try and answer my question: When I say, I want that, first of all it´s probably one or an edition? One?
S.O. I say one. If someone else wants it I make another one.
W.S. Slightly different or something.
S.O. Yes, because it´s all hand-made. I try to do the same but it´s always different.
W.S. O.K. Right, of course. O.K. So I say or someone says, I love that work, I must have it for my collection, I´m an art collector. Right? Does that change your attitude to your work? And does the fact that you will lose ownership of it possession of your boy, affects you in any way?
S.O. No. It relieves some weight from my shoulders actually. So I don´t have to keep it in the storage.
W.S. Does the power of your work changes in your mind if someone buys it, do you say; hey, that´s a successful piece?
S.O. No.
W.S. Not at all?
S.O. No. Although the idea of losing control is a bit tempting actually. It´s also nice that it will have another life without you. I like that kind of an idea as well. Already I think, once you show it, it becomes something else. My whole effort is to give it a life of its own. This kind of an information or this object or that image has the chance to disseminate itself, the chance to...
W.S. ...make it something.
S.O. Yes. The meaning to it will be attached by people. They are going to see and they are going to like it or dislike it or just have something to say about it.
W.S. What´s the title of this work here?
S.O. The title is Today Could Be a Day of Historical Importance. It´s actually a good illustration about the things we have been talking about. Here this is the Freitag newspaper, published in Germany. It´s not a very big newspaper but it´s a national one. I worked with this paper. We went there with some helpers before they published their next issue, they gave us all the pictures, text etc. of the front page and the last page. And we copied them by hand, so we made all these drawings of the pictures and the drawings of the text. We copied them by hand. They used these hand-made drawings and printed the newspaper from them and distributed it the next day. These here are the original drawings, which they used to print the paper.
W.S. Do you make copies of the original drawings?
S.O. No. This is the only copy, right there. This is the copy they used to print the newspaper.
W.S. Do you have copies of the paper?
S.O. Yes. But the paper is printed thousands of copies of course.
W.S. You consider the copies that the paper exists in; in what way is that your work? This is obviously your work, the original drawing. They took this conceptual thing and they print it. Is that signed as an artwork of yours or is it not?
S.O. I think the work is as follows: You go to the paper stand, you buy your everyday newspaper and you realize that it´s a drawing, the pictures and the news and the ads are all drawings. That is I believe where the work occurs. In this moment when you realize it, when you realize and lose your innocence, that´s where the work is.
W.S. It´s not so easy to realize that, this is beautifully rendered. Except maybe in some of the straight lines.
S.O. I made those.
W.S. Who did all the text? Your friends?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. They were good.
S.O. I did all the pictures.
W.S. Do you have an attitude to this piece also like the Goldenboy when it would be nice if it went out to the real world? Or are you possessive about it?
S.O. No, because it did. You know, the actual newspapers, which were printed after these drawings in this copy they went out everywhere.
W.S. So that´s the work.
S.O. There is more than one layer. If you´d asked me which one I liked most, I would say the cheap copy you buy from the paper stand.
W.S. Now you used a very interesting word layer. You said there´s more than one layer in this work. This is often the case with your work, isn´t it?
S.O. I think so.
W.S. There are different layers. Say something to that.
S.O. In this example, like you were saying, my work is this drawing, or my work is the conceptualization of this idea of making a copy and then replacing it with the original, in this case the newspaper, or the work is the printed newspapers, the thousands of copies, or the work is the moment of interaction when you buy your everyday newspaper you see that it´s hand-made on that particular day, or the work is that the collector comes and buys this and puts it in his museum, or the work is that you hang your cheap copy that you bought that day on the wall at your humble apartment.
W.S. So there is a societal involvement. People, society gets involved in your work on different levels. And that´s important to you, isn´t it?
S.O. It is important.
W.S. And it´s a part of your aesthetic, what happens to the work and how people use it, relate to it, is intricate to the concept and the realization and the body of your oeuvre. That´s interesting. I never talked to an artist about that particular situation. Do you think that it´s common with other artists to have this layered attitude to their work or do you think it´s sort of special?
S.O. It also depends on you; how far you can go with your interpretation. How deep you want to dig the work into all these layers. I´m sure someone who´s smarter than I am, can find more in this jungle of layers.
W.S. Right, but I think your talking post-priori. You have the layers already concepted and built in to a why you´re doing and how you´re doing your work. I could say later if someone bought a piece or if it got published or something happened to it, went into a multiple, oh yes, but I may never had that original concept in my thinking of the work. I like that about your work, I think it´s very involving. Because you can´t look at that just as a drawing. You can´t come in here and say, that it´s a nice drawing. You have to know, and how can you know without a text or history or without you being here to tell us, what the deal is, what the story is, what the intention is, what happened to it, and in a sense why it´s important.
S.O. It´s true.
W.S. That´s interesting.
What about that guy there?
S.O. That´s a piece I like.
W.S. Do you not like some of your work?
S.O. Yes. For instance that Goldenboy.
W.S. You´re critical with Goldenboy? It didn´t turn out the way you wanted it to.
S.O. Well, no. That´s the problem. It´s exactly what I opt.
Pamela Seymour Smith: It´s really good.
S.O. Because this piece was easier to make. Maybe the sculpture is too complicated. Maybe should be more resolved. But people seem to like the sculpture, so it´s all right.
W.S. Do you care what people think?
S.O. No... Sure.
W.S. Sometimes.
S.O. Yes. It depends.
This here is a drawing on the window of the airplane. Its called Look! An airplane. While I was flying I made this little drawing of an airplane on the window of the airplane that I was in. Then I took a picture of it. It may be still sitting there in the airplane.
W.S. It´s beautifully presented. I´ve never seen these things. What is that, something special?
S.O. Special magnets.
W.S. How clever. What´s on the other side of the magnet? Metal? More metal?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. Look at that! Come and look at that. He is an installation artist with a single piece of paper and eight pieces of metal. Who knew!
S.O. Germans knew. This German guy showed me this technology and I went directly to the store and bought even bigger magnets.
W.S. What store is that?
S.O. Modulor. Do you know the store?
W.S. I haven´t been there. Not yet. But I will go there. And I´ll think of you when I steal your ideas Serkan. He´s got plenty good ideas!
So you drew this?
S.O. No, no, no.
W.S. Is it a photo?
S.O. This is a photo and this little thing here is the drawing I made on the window of the airplane.
W.S. Yes.
S.O. And then I took the photo.
W.S. I see.
S.O. As if another airplane was on the air.
W.S. Yes.
S.O. But really it´s standing there in the airplane.
W.S. Yes.
S.O. But this is just a photo of...
W.S. Layers!
S.O. Oh, yes.
W.S. Oh, Willoughby! I didn´t say it. You said layers!

* * *

What´s that?
S.O. It´s, where those two black guys in the car and they are talking, and everything is censored, like they do on the TV but the curses. They always go like; beep, fuck, beep, bitch, beep, nigger, beep, fuck, beep...
W.S. Have other people who are concerned with your work, other critics or curators remarked or said to you, that they think there´s a wide range of levels in it?
S.O. No. They haven´t. In fact it´s easier for me to see it with the attachment one single meaning to every other piece.
W.S. But I´m not only talking about meanings here. I´m talking about media, I´m talking about Gestalt, I´m talking about look and materials and even the way you placed... You go to a regular show of painting and you see 30 paintings and they are all the same size, and the same color and they put it in a row. You go and say that one´s good that one´s good. With you, and maybe you can get a look, Pamela, of the panorama of the show; I mean the forms are carefully chosen by you. There are the circular forms, a big white space, the photos and the text, TV set, the projection and the hanging sculpture, photo, the drawing for that piece, the photograph of the other piece and the others. That´s this installation and then there´s the piece in the other room. It´s very smart. It´s very snappy to my sophisticated eye. Now you must have taken a floor plan of this space and realized how big it was, and said where is the Goldenboy going to be and where you´re going to project the video on this wall. Tell us a little bit about your concerns and your thinking about this show and its installation problems.
S.O. Yeah. First time they invited me here to have this show, I thought - it was probably a misunderstanding because of all these emails - it was going to be a group show. And then I had the idea for the Goldenboy sculpture and I thought that would be my piece in the group show. So I came here for three days, in the beginning of my residency period, and I sculpted it, so to speak, I cut those pieces and glued them together. The next day Valeria, the coordinator here, she came to me and showed me the room. She says: "Here, it´s where your show is going to be." And I was like: "What?! How am I going to fill it?" It was too huge and it was a solo show in the end. She showed me these three rooms and asked me which one I preferred. I said, the biggest one and the other small room if possible.
I wanted to hang the sculpture in the middle but it wasn´t possible because the ceiling is not strong enough, so the only place we could hang it was there. Then I had the idea of projecting the video in order to take a lot of space.
W.S. This is exactly what I did in the Who is Willoughby Sharp show. I knew about the big four walls, this wall in my show, would be carried by a big digital projection. And I had one idea for a piece of sculpture, Beuys-lives. Then I built. The way I built was that I sat in the space and I looked at it and looked at it and I thought that I needed cheap materials. You didn´t do that here. You went back, and you thought.
S.O. Yes.
W.S. Did any of these pieces exist before you said O.K. I put that in the show? Like these four? Or did you make them for the show?

S.O. These four smileys I made for the show, the Goldenboy I made for the show, the bust, that Smiley Bust I made for the show. The rest I think was already existing. So I just put them here and there. But that picture with the eggs...
W.S. You had that before.
S.O. That´s the first time I´m showing it.
W.S. Why such a purposely cheap golden frame?
S.O. Well, I, err, the budget... The budget of my production was over so I had to err... I found a very nice frame here and it costs 150 euros. So I said "nah", you know, I go back to Istanbul and I had this one made specially for that picture. It cost me 6 euros.
W.S. It´s good, it´s good.
S.O. Can you beat that?
W.S. See, I thought it was a found object.
S.O. Okay. You got me.
W.S. That´s good. That´s very good.
Let´s go to these, what´s this about Serkan, these round shapes?
S.O. It´s again the smileys. I entitled them with this sentence: When he came back to his senses, the monster was still waiting in front of the cave.
W.S. Where did you get this material? Just curious.
S.O. Guess!
W.S. Err, Modulor?
S.O. Yes!
W.S. I used to work in the United States as a visiting artist and I´m going to the hardware stores, I love the old mid western hardware stores, where you find all kinds of stuff. Here it´s Bauhaus. And I had a show planning from a board of supply place? Do you think a little bit that way? Modulor, what kinds of tools and special things can they give me that I make an art out of?
S.O. Err.
W.S. You do?
S.O. Err.
W.S. A little?
S.O. A little, because I always have the ideas before. And then I go and look for the...
W.S. Solution.
S.O. Yes. For me that´s actually a mistake. That may be because I never really studied art, you know.
W.S. Why not?
S.O. I wasn´t anxious to do that.
W.S. What did you study?
S.O. Literature.
W.S. Where?
S.O. In Istanbul.
W.S. Istanbul?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. What a strange place!

* * *
W.S. So what´s the deal here?
S.O. I was looking for a large round thing. Then I saw these mirrors and I thought they look very beautiful.
W.S. I agree with you. They are beautiful. And serial and one. Don´t combine them, don´t cut them take them as they are and do something.
S.O. Also stupid.
W.S. Did you get that? He said they look stupid! He likes something that look stupid. And the reason for that is that he is so smart.

* * *

W.S. Do you think that you have an important art historical career in front of yourself?
S.O. I don´t think that the history is written in the way in which we can really calculate. It´s pretty irrelevant, because the further you go the wider your horizon becomes. Then you see these other planes. For example five years ago having a solo show in Berlin in plain terms was great for me, that was my career ahead of me and I would be so satisfied. Now I probably have some other visions, and now I somehow learned that it´s not about this idea of the future, or this idea of the career or something like that but the idea you get, the idea you have to make a piece, to make a work of art.
W.S. That´s what´s important.
S.O. That´s more satisfying.
W.S. That´s more important than the career.
S.O. I think so, because it is more satisfying in the end. The career has to develop all the time, there is no end to it. But the work is there and you have the idea and you know it´s a good idea and you can share it with your friends.
W.S. Alright. I am 70 years old and I have done a lot of things and I´m on a show in Berlin. It´s what you had five years ago. So I´m actually five years behind you in my development as a gallery artist who has a gallery. Sometime very recently before I started making the work in that show, I started feeling for the first time in my life the power that I had to make art. I never felt it before. I felt it flowing through me, I could make Art is Eternal, I could make Beuys-lives, I think of the shows. Now I have the possibility of museum shows etc. You said you thought of yourself as a painter when you were very young, twelve or thirteen years old. Was there a moment in your development when you started to realize I have it, I am an artist. No one can take that away from me. I can create a whole body of work, maybe some are great, some are not so great but I have it. Have you anything or a feeling at all relates to that?
S.O. I don´t think it´s a special thing. That it´s a privilege at all. I think the ideas are there. It´s just the choice to either make it, to see and be tempted and devote yourself to create that thing, follow that idea. Be it stupid or be it irrelevant. It´s just a choice. It´s nothing special.
W.S. And some other artists can have a similar idea and execute that work.
S.O. Oh yeah.
W.S. All the time.
S.O. Most of the time I´m the one who has the similar ideas to those artists. I just go ahead and make it, because I kind of feel responsible in that way. If I can see it, if I know that it would look good in the end or that it would feel good or it is something interesting, at least I can see that not as an artist but maybe more as a spectator, and then I feel like I should go and make it happen.
W.S. So you have a social responsibility to follow through your esthetic and make the work for the world.
S.O. For myself.
W.S. But you said that there is also in the back of your mind that they would like it. Yes?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. Are you only making it for yourself Serkan? No.
S.O. Err.
W.S. Primarily.
S.O. You´re right. I want to share it.
W.S. Why not. And you said so earlier in this interview.
S.O. Yes.
W.S. Me too! I want somebody say "Hey, you pulled a good one!"
S.O. Yeah, exactly.
W.S. What else. We have this.
S.O. It´s a letter I wrote to United Nations in New York. It starts with "Dear United Nations Official, in these times of hardship when many individuals all over the world are struggling to survive..." Then this is a proposal to have a universal happy hour in all over the world. During this one hour period all the alcoholic beverages are going to be sold to one tenth of their normal value. So everyone is going to...
W.S. Drink a lot.
S.O. Drink a lot and be happy and feel that they unite together, all nationalities.
W.S. So, you got an answer too.
S.O. "Please allow me to thank you for taking the initiative to write us and even more importantly for sharing your idea for creating a happy hour. Your proposal has been read and duly noted." And blah blah blah.
W.S. What are the photos here?
S.O. These are some photos I found on the internet. I searched for happy hour and googled it up...
W.S. Googled it up. That´s good. I never heard that expression; google it up. It´s kind of a bake it up.
S.O. Exactly. You can print them out and there is your artwork.
W.S. Is that Pamela Seymour Smith in one of your photos here? No it´s not her.
S.O. I think that´s a photo of a bunch of Germans. There is some Americans, and Asian people too.
W.S. How do you like Germany?
S.O. I love being here. I think it´s a really special place.
W.S. You think there is a future for the art world here? You think collectors will begin to buy.
S.O. I think there is a future here.
W.S. Do you have any commercial gallery interested in you? Have you tried?
Is this going to fall? In this sequence?
S.O. No.
This is the double size David statue I made in gold. The idea is that there is a scientist in L.A. at Stanford University. He invented this machine basically, which is called three dimensional fax machine and you can scan some things three dimensionally and then send the data over somewhere to China etc. If they have the three dimensional printer, they can print the object out. So you can actually beam things up. For example you can scan this TV monitor and the pedestal and send the information over to somewhere. They can print it out. What they´d have is this exact same form. They´d have this TV monitor and the pedestal. But the TV monitor would not function. It would be a sculpture of a TV monitor. It only records the form. It´s like taking a picture of something but in three dimensions. He also scanned and made a computer model for Michelangelo´s David in Florence. It´s probably one of the best computer models now. He sent it over to me. I wanted to print it out. Since I had the data, the abstraction, I thought I may as well blow it up. I decided to make it double size. Then I thought maybe I should paint it gold as well. To make it appear more precious. I made the object and painted it gold. Then I wanted to show it at that show. During the installation before the opening they just dropped it. It was damaged.
W.S. Will you show the falling?
S.O. No.
W.S. You never had that?
S.O. I have it.
W.S. You have that. You took shots of it?
S.O. Yes. Not myself but...
W.S. Someone.
S.O. But I´m not showing it.
W.S. Why?
S.O. It´s not very nice and at that moment like three or four days before the show it was very disappointing for me and I just didn´t want to show that. I still consider the piece unfinished, you know. I want to have this giant statue sitting next to a mosque or next to the Istanbul urban scene, whatever it is, and people to interact with it. That was the main piece. That´s not done yet, so I still think it´s under construction.
W.S. Do you want to make it again and show it?
S.O. Yes. Right now it´s being restored.
W.S. They´re repairing it? Can it be repaired?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. Didn´t it cost an awful amount of money to make?
S.O. Not too much.
W.S. How much?
S.O. About 8,000 euros to make it.
W.S. That´s a lot.
S.O. It is a lot but when considered the size and the labor...
W.S. Where did you get the 8,000 euro?
S.O. Istanbul Biennial.
W.S. They paid for you.
S.O. Yeah.

* * *

W.S. Are you a conceptual artist, Serkan?
S.O. I sure am.
W.S. You have to be, you know. As a young artist and just making his way Willoughby Sharp and having seen some of my work and thinking of other young artists and being mature on your own way, you have commercial gallery in Istanbul, you have been in Istanbul Biennial, then again you have critics that care about you and write about you, you have a show in Berlin. What advise would you give to emerging, younger artists like myself?
S.O. ...
W.S. Or if that´s too hard; have you ever made any mistakes in your life in your production?
S.O. I have made nothing but mistakes.
W.S. Nothing but mistakes?
S.O. I think so. How can you make mistakes or the right moves?
W.S. Is there no right or wrong?
S.O. You never know. You do something, the next day it´s good, the other day it´s wrong.
W.S. Because it depends on what you think about it.
S.O. Yes, and it becomes as well, it evolves as well.
W.S. The thing itself?
S.O. Maybe yes. Because, you know, the perception changes. Like Copernicus used to say; the sky is always going to be the same but astronomy changes. Which is actually a mistake, because the sky changes too. There is no guarantee, you know. Everything changes the perception and the thing itself.
W.S. So this is a major...
S.O. Insecurity.
W.S. ...fact, that forms your life. Does it make you insecure, does it make you secure? How does it make you feel on a day-to-day level? Not as an artist or anything but just as a human being.
S.O. Insecure.
W.S. Insecure?
S.O. Yes.
W.S. Because anything could happen.
S.O. Yes, because you don´t know what´s right and what´s wrong.
W.S. You don´t know what´s right and what´s wrong. Now you´re asking me some very interesting questions my friend. I certainly could give an opinion on what I think is right or wrong in a situation. For example I think this is the right thing to do, I think I and Pamela and you and your friend are spending this particular moment in the world in a right manner, in a good manner, in a productive manner. That is right. By consequence it would have been wrong, a mistake, if we had for example not arrived to this point. If we weren´t smart enough to figure out the way to do it and if we hadn´t been motivated to want to do it. That would have been, in my thinking, a missed opportunity. Now we get to my idea of destiny. I actually am stupid enough to believe that what I do is given by a force or power beyond me as I don´t have any control over it and that we are here doing this is a part of destiny. That it was made to be, that it was inevitable that I could not somehow have avoided it. Now that´s a paradox and I´m getting to all kinds of philosophy. What do you say?
S.O. I agree with you, and therefore there is no right or wrong in it. It is the life we are living.
W.S. Yes.
S.O. But you never know the consequences, what we are going to do with this tape or you know, if I turn out to be an asshole and sell this tape to this guy or not send it back to you or something like that. That would be another story. And then you come and get me. You know, which is going to happen in the future, you´ll be knocking on my door in Istanbul and I´m trying to run away, and you get your gun and you know. The bunnies and stuff. A mess.
W.S. I´ll get my bunnies after you Serkan. I´ll have my bunnies on.
But what is your feeling about destiny?
S.O. Destiny seems like something that is attached to the future. I think it´s today we are acting in.
W.S. That something will happen in the future as a result of our activities here.
S.O. No, I don´t believe in that. "Nothing is the result of anything." Tolstoy.
W.S. Well Copernicus, Tolstoy, Persian poetry, this guy comes on for an interview, right?
S.O. I read that little bluffer´s notebook of quotes. I don´t think it´s anything to do with the consequences but maybe some little effect in some other way than we thought of actually. It´s not possible to calculate it. And it´s not possible to analyze it afterwards. You can say this happened because of that. But maybe it didn´t. You only say it because you think that´s the easiest and most clear relevance to your understanding at that moment.
W.S. That´s true.
S.O. But there is a million other relevant causes and facts. And the thing is that you can´t just isolate one act out of this whole system and look at it and then attach a cause to it.
W.S. Or meaning.
S.O. Meaning as well.
But you can say this fence is standing in here, because they put the stone there. Or this is standing here because God wills it. Or this is standing here because there´s this championship here. Or this is standing here because the wind is holding it. You can keep doing this attachment of cause and effect to your understanding. And they are all right; they are all true in their own ways. But none of them is true. The only truth is that it is standing.
And there is nothing right about it or nothing wrong about it.
W.S. Is there nothing right, can you find nothing that you did let´s say, that was right. Have you ever done anything right?
S.O. I´m afraid not.
W.S. Well, that´s a good place to end.

Photograph: Anja Teske

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